tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3498725671447004370.post5981769434374886213..comments2023-10-26T07:19:41.446-05:00Comments on Science Avenger: More (Cough Cough) Brilliant Arguments from Religious ScientistsScienceAvengerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00855046387193200080noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3498725671447004370.post-54505194325755960292008-05-25T21:12:00.000-05:002008-05-25T21:12:00.000-05:00"I believe, by a completely irrational leap of fai..."I believe, by a completely irrational leap of faith, that there is a god I'll meet when I die" -- Gardner.<BR/><BR/>Not a bad quote. Here's another:<BR/><BR/>"[To an atheist] the universe is the most exquisite masterpiece ever constructed by nobody." -- from G. K. Chesterton, is one of Gardner's favorite quotes. (wiki)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3498725671447004370.post-47186596189294344962008-05-02T08:13:00.000-05:002008-05-02T08:13:00.000-05:00You are tilting at straw Luke. I suggest you read...You are tilting at straw Luke. I suggest you read my last paragraph above again, and consider that you and I agree. These men are making irrational leaps of faith, as you say. But instead of admitting it, they play semantic games, and make patently absurd arguments, trying to justify those leaps logically.<BR/><BR/>That is my beef with them, not that they hold these beliefs. Holding irrational beliefs while pretending they are scientifically or philosophically sound is exactly what our political enemies do. Every time people like Ayala and Phillips make these silly statements, they are doing worse than alienating allies: they are giving ammunition to our enemies.ScienceAvengerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00855046387193200080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3498725671447004370.post-23263406640197324032008-05-02T00:19:00.000-05:002008-05-02T00:19:00.000-05:00Lighten up a bit and allow that some people's subj...Lighten up a bit and allow that some people's subjective experience of and approach to the universe might be a bit different than yours. The sentiments expressed by Phillips and Ayala do not demand that you embrace their beliefs, only that you accept that they have them.<BR/>There are plenty of folks out there who make a few deliberately irrational leaps of faith in ways that are not particularly important to a strict rationalist, but who are on the same side when it comes to real issues (e.g. teaching real science in the schools). It is OK to admit you don't understand it, or that you don't agree with it, but do try to do so respectfully.<BR/>It really doesn't serve much purpose to alienate potential allies because of trivial disagreements.Luke H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17526959547500069166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3498725671447004370.post-458439560461147962008-05-01T14:13:00.000-05:002008-05-01T14:13:00.000-05:00It isn't that I disbelieve in a God or Gods - it's...It isn't that I <I>dis</I>believe in a God or Gods - it's that I'm agnostic with regards to the idea that God exists outside of human experience.<BR/><BR/>I believe that there is such a thing as an experience of "God". That experience is the basis of my decision to re-label myself as a non-atheist. Whether it's an old man sitting on a cloud or random firings on neurons is beside the point (I strongly doubt the former).<BR/><BR/>The fact that I disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus does not put me outside of the norm in liberal Christianity. My position on God certainly leaves me outside of the norm, but I really don't think that I am <I>that</I> far away from someone like John Spong. Based on conversations I have had with people at my church, I'm not alone in my perception of God either.Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01010178962574928062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3498725671447004370.post-6050297758791756772008-05-01T13:46:00.000-05:002008-05-01T13:46:00.000-05:00Ian,I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around...Ian,<BR/><BR/>I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around a Christian who doesn't believe in any gods, unless by Christian you mean "one who attempts to live a Christ-like life".<BR/><BR/>James, <BR/><BR/>I am a big fan of those subjective, difficult-to-pin-down aspects of experience. Music, and its effect on the listerner, to name just one, is a minor obsession. But it seemed to me that it was Phillips who, by conflating talk of god (the former category) with talk of song and moral goodness (the latter) was failing to make the distinction you note.<BR/><BR/>I'll check out the links you provided, thanks. Perhaps they will add clarity.ScienceAvengerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00855046387193200080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3498725671447004370.post-66032959698016848712008-05-01T10:56:00.000-05:002008-05-01T10:56:00.000-05:00"I believe, by a completely irrational leap of fai...<I><B>"I believe, by a completely irrational leap of faith, that there is a god I'll meet when I die"</B><BR/><BR/>Is that really so damned hard?</I><BR/><BR/>Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife. I have no evidence that any sort of a "God" exists outside of human experience, so I don't make that assumption either. But I'm still a Christian and an active member of my church.<BR/><BR/>Of course, in my opinion it's silly to speak about religion in terms of "knowledge". It's far more useful to speak of religion (and art, beauty, etc.) in terms of "experience".Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01010178962574928062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3498725671447004370.post-74250578181385430982008-05-01T09:15:00.000-05:002008-05-01T09:15:00.000-05:00I think you are failing to distinguish between the...I think you are failing to distinguish between the way fundamentalists use religious language, as claims to certain knowledge about realities they do not in fact have certain knowledge about, and the way <A HREF="http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2007/09/why-i-am-christian.html" REL="nofollow">moderate and liberal religious believers</A> use such language, as a way of pointing to those aspects of life that are not subjectible to scientific investigation, but seem necessary to do justice to our experience of life in the universe.<BR/><BR/>Some atheists and philosophers <A HREF="http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/04/lightweight-atheists-pummeling-corpse.html" REL="nofollow">recommend silence over metaphor</A> at this point. Some of us find we need to use words, even though they are inadequate and symbolic rather than literal. We experience the universe as beautiful, and as meaningful, and are simply looking for language that will give expression to those aspects of existence as we perceive it.<BR/><BR/>Let me share a <A HREF="http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2007/12/repost-of-christian-atheist-dialogue.html" REL="nofollow">discussion with an atheist</A> and a <A HREF="http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2007/11/welcome-richard-m.html" REL="nofollow">guest post by an atheist who really understands where I am coming from on this subject</A>, in case you are interested.James F. McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647noreply@blogger.com